Atheism Ask a Christian forum

thetacoman posted on May 14, 2011 at 03:49PM
Altough you may not want to admit it, I know that many people here have questions about Christianity. Please note that I may not be able to answer every single question you have because I need time to answer.

Atheism 273 risposte

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più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Ah sorry i havent gotten back. Bugs are different they arent human. Prayer does work. God provides all things. He can send a person that gives you baby food. If I do have a relationship with God, who are you to tell me I don't know what God wants?? It says in the Bible. Plus if he was tired of anyone it would be me a long time ago. I only cared what I wanted. I disobeyed God all the time ago.
God is outside of time. Therefore He is neither old nor young. We only believe He is ancient. No one will know what he looks like until they go to Heaven.
Yeah He did die. The Trinity, The father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. They are three and one at the same time. He sent His Son to die so we might have a relationship with Him. So that it would be possible. Howeveer three days later He rose again, from the dead. God was and is and is to come.
I don't believe a God of love would want a plan that requires His creation to die. That may lead you to ask the question, Then why did God create Hell?
The answer to that is He created Hell For Satan and His followers. People choose to go to Hell every day.
Just because you don't believe He's there doesn't mean He isnt. Even the demons know that God exists. So ask yourself that question " If people don't believe in God's rules, and don't believe in God at all, should they still have to follow them?"
più di un anno fa ilovereading said…
^Christians have the same amount of evidence for their god as any other religion, which means none. "Even demons know that God exists," is not a valid argument - their existance is as questionable as god's (at least from my side).
Taking another believer's word is the only way to believe in god(s) and therefore "Even if you don't believe in my God, he is still real and you have to fallow him." simply means "Because I said so."
I don't doubt your sincerity in belief, but can't you see that trying to force people into obeying any "devine rules" that cannot be justiefied without god is forcing your opinion on others?

As for "choosing to go to Hell", I have to disagree. Nobody chooses to go to hell and suffer. Even if there is your god and his hell, the decision between believing and not believing would not be equal or free, as there is no evidence of God - blind faith versus trusting your own eyes is not exactly equaly weighted chooice and anyone is influenced by society/family rather than free will. What you are trying to equalise is "not obeying God" and "choosing to suffer for eternity". Once again if god is real, these two are still not the same, it is only that the second is a consequence of the first. God is the one that chooses suffering for humans that decide to (not consciously) disobey him.

Sorry if I sound aggressive, but I had to tell why I don't agree with you.
last edited più di un anno fa
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
"He can send a person that gives you baby food."
- Then why doesn't he? There are good people out there who ask their God for that kind of help, and they work hard at trying to get that help on their own, and it still doesn't come. Does God pick names out of a hat?

"If I do have a relationship with God, who are you to tell me I don't know what God wants??"
- I think that you can believe that you know what your God wants in the context of your own life, but you can't know what other people's gods want for them or what other people want from their gods.

The issue of choice here is odd. I am an Atheist and, according to the bible, I'm going to hell. I have always been an Atheist and I have always been a good person (ie I don't murder people, I don't beat people up, I'm a productive member of society etc). So by simply not being interested in organised religion, have I 'chosen' to send myself to hell with the rest of the murderers, rapists and generally horrible people (oh, and all those other innocent Atheists too)? Even if the sum total of my life is more positive than, say, a devout christian who beats his wife every day, but being an Atheist, I have 'chosen' to be punished for eternity for doing nothing wrong? God doesn't care if I live my life 'choosing' to be a good person, because its more important to him that I 'choose' to believe in him?

"Just because you don't believe He's there doesn't mean He isnt."
- And just because you believe he is there doesn't mean he is. I have no doubt that your god is real for you, but that isn't everybody else's reality.

"If people don't believe in God's rules, and don't believe in God at all, should they still have to follow them?"
- Depends what you mean by "God's rules." The rules about not killing people and about not being an asshole in general, are not rules that are specific to the christian God and the bible anyway. Those societal rules have been around for a long time, in many different forms. If we are talking about "God's rules" concerning homosexuality, the role of women, atheism/other religions etc, then I proudly say that I do not follow those rules. Never have, never will. Following "God's rules" hasn't exactly gone well over the course of human history, and I personally feel like I would live a better life for myself, my loved ones and the world as a whole if I follow what I believe is right.
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Miracles are shown everyday like the baby food example. People just seem to overlook it everyday. Everything will happen at the right time, in God's time.

Christianity isn't a religion, it's a life style and a relationship with God. It's okay people often categorize us Christians.

As for "being a good person" let me give you an analogy. Say a man who is a reasonably good man. However, one day he finds himself in court. He hadn't paid the stacks of parking tickets and speeding tickets. The judge sentences him to jail time. The man cries out and says," Your honor, I am a good man.I haven't done as much bad things as I have good things.Please your honor. If I wouldv'e known I would be sentenced to jail time, I wouldv'e paid." Would the judge simply let him go because he didn't know about jail? How about his good outweighing his bad?

Now that analogy is like how we would be if we stood before God. With each different wronging, there is a different punishment. Non are tolerable .

It is most definitly important to him that you believe in him. It in THE ONLY way to Heaven. John 3:16

We all do things wrong no matter how big or little. That's what seperates us from God. Romans 3:23 That also prevents us from going to Heaven. That's where Jesus comes in. He decided to do what his father had asked him to do. To pay the punishment of the wrongings, or sins, so that we might believe that He exists and that he sent his Son to die a brutal death so you might have a relationship with Him. All we have to do to get to Heaven, is believe that A) God exists and B)That Jesus existed and that he was and is and always will be God's Son and that he died in place of your sins. Then you accept that gift. You don't have to earn your way into Heaven it doesn't work like that.

I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything. At least that's not my intensions. Everything is based on morality and if God didn't exist, explain where we get our morality from? How do we know what good looks like?
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
The baby food example shows that prayer doesn't work for everybody. Some people get baby food, others don't, regardless of their religious beliefs. So my question remains: why does "God" answer some people's prayers and not others? If it is either random or predestined, prayer is irrelevant, right?

If that man doesn't know that he has to pay is parking tickets, then he is an idiot and jail time might do him some good. Although, given prison over-crowding, he wouldn't actually go to prison anyway. Speeding tickets and parking fines are indications that someone has broken specific laws that may have caused someone else harm. And that potential harm is universal. He that man breaks those laws, then he should be punished. But when we talk about "God's laws" (ie you must believe, you can't be gay, don't kill anybody etc) we aren't necessarily doing any harm. Sure, if you kill someone, you are held accountable in this life, and to any god etc that you choose to believe in. But if you are, for example, an Atheist (with Atheism being the crime), you haven't caused anyone any harm. Lets say that a single Atheist cures cancer and AIDS, donates billions of dollars to charity and saves billions of lives, runs an endangered animal sanctuary and it all-round the greatest most positive person that has ever lived ever in the history of the world. That Atheist dies and, woopsy, finds out that there is a God. Does God still send that Atheist to Hell? Does the statement "I do not believe in a christian god" really outweigh a lifetime of good deeds and positive influence?

I believe that importance in the belief in the christian god is a political tool to ensure that the religion not only survives, but survives in the highest position of power.

My morality comes from being a social human. I know that I punch a man in the face, I will cause him pain. I know that if I am mean to someone, their feelings might get hurt. So I try to treat people how I want to be treated. I know that taking away someone's rights is unaaceptable because I don't want my rights taken away. Morals come from social interaction, history and and communication. I knew that stealing my little brother's toys when we were little was wrong because he cried and my parents told me off. No god taught me and no god teaches me now. To be blunt, I find the christian God's morality quite abhorrent and I don't believe that that is what good looks like.

Oh and I know you're not trying to force beliefs on people. Its just a debate and I think its cool to talk about all this stuff!
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Where did morality derive from? Did it simply just start? And the treat others how you want to be treated? I would really love to know where you got it from because it is also in the Bible. Without God there would be more chaos because no one would be able to see an example of goodness.

God has his reasons for not answering our prayers, believe me I know it is hard. I prayed for someone to get better but he died. I don't understand God completely but what I do know is this. God doesn't do anything without a reason. I have concluded this I've though, whatever doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Even though I'm young, I've been through hell and back. Of course not the literal hell, but I think you get my point. I had asked God for the longest time why what happened happened. I finally realized after many years that it made me a stronger person.

I found something interesting that I found after I posted my last thing and I find it completely true. God doesn't have a religion. He was there before people started fighting about religion.

My example for speeding tickets and parking tickets are not to show the stupidity of the man. It was to show that the judge didn't look at the good hings he had done in his life. He was in court because he did something wrong.

Let me give you another analogy as to the comparison of the wrong things we do in life. A girl was looking at a beautiful hillside covered with lush, green grass. She noticed a herd of sheep standing on the hill. They looked so white and clean, especially against the dark green grass. The girl went to bed, and the next morning she walked outside to look at the sheep. However it had snowed all night. The sheep were still there, but now, against the unblemished white snow, they looked dingy, even dirty. In the same way, our "goodness" when compared to God's standing for "good" falls far far short. I can't take credit for this analogy it is not mine.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
I think morality is natural. We've always had it in some sense or another, and it has become more complex as society has developed. We had morals long before the bible. Other animals don't have a bible and they have morals.

I would also contest that their is nothing much in the bible about "goodness." There is a lot about obediance, but I have never found much good in the bible at all...

I think its is great if you can find strength in your religion to get you though hardship. I guess my point is there are many people out there who have faith and they work hard and they still struggle to feel their children. I guess "God's plan" might be a reasonable explanation for some people, but for me it obscures the real issues and real solutions to those issues.

"God doesn't have a religion. He was there before people started fighting about religion."
- That is a concept that makes sense to me. I think if some sort of creator exists, it isn't defined by any of the religions that humans have invented. I think that is a very cool concept.

My point about the speeding ticket guy is that he isn't defined by all his good deeds, but he also isn't defined by his speeding ticket sins.

That is nice analogy. But I actually interpret that as showing that morality isn't clear cut and that our perceptions and perspectives are ever-changing depending on the situation. That analogy, to me, represents how we as people are sometimes viewed as squeaky clean sheep and other times we are dirty sheep. Maybe its just that you see that as a way to think about your relationship to your God, and I see it as relationships between people.
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
I wanted to ask what you mean by a comment that you put earlier. You said,"To be blunt, I find the christian God's morality quite abhorrent and I don't believe that that is what good looks like." What did you mean by that? What kind of morality do you think God has?

If you're looking for "goodness" in the Bible, try Psalms and Proverbs. Those are the main books that popped in my head right off the bat.

First off I wanted to let you know that I wasn't always a Christian. In fact, I became one about a year ago. I always said that I believed God existed but then I would go home and wonder if He did. I put up with alot of stuff as a kid that alot wouldn't be able to understand. I often questioned why God had let it happened. "If God were there then why would he let so and so leave me behind while my brother and her left the state? Why would he let her say so many broken promises that let me broken?" These were the type of questions I asked as a young child. I eventually became bitter towards this particular person. As I grew older I realized the positive side to all of it. It made me a stronger person and she didn't influence me to become like her, therefore breaking the circle that would have continued if she stayed. I thanked God that he helped me break the circle. I forgave her after I became a Christian. Lots have happened since then but there's a look at things. I'm telling you this because everything has it's purpose, everything happens for a reason. That isn't just some catch phrase that Christians use. The stuff in my past were real issues with real solutions.

The analogy shows that God looks at us the same. When we see the news about a pedophile or murderer, we get digusted of that person. Well, with all due respect, we look like that when we are compared to Jesus's perfection.

I have a question that might be a little tough. Let's say that a baby is born but with a defect and is only going to about the age of ten. Would that child whose heart is beating, be a misatke then? I ask you this question to open your eyes a little bit. God doesn't make mistakes.

Oh and the Bible has been here for an extremely long time. There has been artifacts found that go with the Bible. For example Noah's ark. That is just one of many examples.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
The biblical God is very concerned with getting people to love him. He slaughters people left, right and centre. He encourages people to say and do horrible things to others. And he motivates people to do those things by threatening "Hell" etc. That isn't the kind of morality that I want in my life.

I guess I would think that a god (or Jesus etc) would be more worthy of my respect of it looked at me and saw me for who I was, rather than looking at me and saying, "Gross, she doesn't believe in me, she is a terrible person even though she hasn't really done anything wrong in her life." I think its ok if people want to think that they are "dirty sheep" in God's eyes, but I think that sends a bad message about humanity. And I think that is where a lot of our societal problems come from. Following the bible in order to try to 'clean your fleece' is not a morally superior path through life. Its a certain path through life, but I don't think my fleece should be considered any dirtier than anyone else's simply because different philosophies inform my life. I believe that we should spend more time worrying if we are treating each other morally in this life rather than worrying if we are treating each other morally according to a book or a mystical figure. A morality debate among your peers will reach more clarity than a morality debate with Jesus, because the latter debate is a one-sided one.

I don't really know what you want me to think about that analogy. That situation has happened to children in the past and it will happen in the future. Thats that child's life. I don't think any god deliberately gave that child a biological glitch. We all have glitches and defects because nature is organised chaos. I just don't think God is doing the organising. If s/he is, s/he's doing a horrible job at it.

Peronally, I don't believe that the "Noah's Ark" discovery (or any other supposed biblical artifact for that matter) leds any credibility to the bible, just as how old the bible is doesn't give it credibility. I guess that is some sort of evidence for you, but those kinds of things mean nothing to me, and mean nothing to people of other religions who have found a million things that confirm that their religion is the true religion.
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
I didnt mean to confuse you. God looks at us the same. We are all equal in His eyes. He knows every little detail about you and He loves everyone. It pains Him to see His creation destroy itself. We are all terrible if you want to be technical. No one is perfect. Me and you right now are equal.

God doesn't encourage things that are wrong. That is what the devil does. The devil is a liar and rejoices in things that are wrong.

I agree that all of us have glitches and God knows that. He loves us for us. He doesn't say eww gross. My analogy shows that we as humans are equal to each other. God doesn't favor Christians more than anyone else. We are all His creation.

I have a couple of questions. Do you believe there is Heaven? Do you believe there is Hell? What gives you hope?
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
But we wouldn't be equal if we both standing before him after death, right? Because you have accepted him, and I haven't. So even if we are both equally good people when we are alive, I still get sent to Hell simply because I'm an Atheist. That division between good and bad has been made based on a theoretical and philosophical postion, rather than my actions. I guess I find it irritating that people think that a murderer who repents is more worthy of heaven than a good person who happens to be an Atheist. And its not the heaven/hell/God's judgement part that irritates me: its the message that sends to about Atheists in this life. It constructs us as the worst of the worst, the most sin-iest of sinners. I'm not saying that you specifically think that about me or another Atheist or non-christian, but that is the general attitude that gets pushed out there when people talk about sin and Atheism. I'm guessing that christians feel the same way when Atheists talk about christianity being being harmful to society. But I firmly believe that the bible pushes these ideas. The bible promotes that division between the 'good' believers and the 'bad' non-believers. The bible asks christians to do good, but in the christian context (ie they have to believe in God and the story that the bible tells etc). Non-believers are positioned outside of that context. They are already inherently 'bad' because they don't believe, so they can't do good things 'properly', like believers. So the bible enourages that division of good and bad, and we spend all this time debating/arguing/fighting/warring over that division, over which version of 'good' is the best and which version of 'bad' is the worst. I would suspect that we are all doing pretty much striving for the same things in this life, we just justify our actions differently. If denying God is really the key between entry into heaven and hell, then my soul is surely hell-bound. But if God judges us by who we are and what we have done in our lives, then I think the majority of us will be off to heaven, and we will wonder what all the fussing was about. Or we'll all be reincarnated as horseflies and all this debate will be moot!

So I think God does encourage wrong in the bible. He encourages discrimation against women/atheists/gays etc. The bible labels Atheists as bad people, and suggests that they are deserving of horrible things (ie suffereing in hell, death, being shunned, having their property damaged etc). The bible suggests that homosexuals should suffer the same. And women are subordinated throughout the entire bible. I believe that is wrong to foster those attitudes. And I believe it is wrong because I have seen people suffer because of it. Calling Atheists and gays 'evil' hurts people. Atheists and homosexual people have been killed because the bible has fostered the belief that they are bad people. I think that is wrong. I think it is wrong to tell someone that their life is not worthwhile, or even harmful, based upon personal religious belief. I think its wrong that religious groups pressure governments about abortion legislation and marriage legislation, because the religious influence on government policy directly impacts upon people's lives.
Maybe you think the "devil" makes me believe these things...? I dunno, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But, from my perspective, if the "devil" is the one who rejoices in bad things, then I think perhaps your God and your Devil are one in the same...

I do not believe in any form of Heaven or Hell. But I like the idea of Purgatory. My default position on, well, everything, is more agnostic: I don't know and I can't know. But I do find it impossible to believe that there is some sort of figurehead that divides souls up into good and bad piles. That makes no sense to me.

I've been asked about "hope" before, and the question kinda confuses me a little... I think christians might have a different sense of the significance of hope than Atheists so... well, certain than I do anyway... For me, I don't think a definitive sense of "hope" is significant. I think my sense of hope is situational, not over-arching. For example, I'm conducting psychological research at the moment, and I've found positivity and hope in that, and I'm hopeful that that can lead down an exciting and positive path. I guess if I can give you a generalised version about what gives me "hope", it would be when I see/experience justice. When wrongs are righted, or at the very least, acknowledged. Social movements, like the civil rights movement, women's rights movement etc, are hopeful to me. Such movements are problematic, internally and externally, but the movement towards social justice is something that make me hopeful and inspires me.
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
I want to get something straight. Atheism isn't specified in the Bible. It says whoever doesn't believe in Jesus and believe that He died so we might have a relationship with God and that His death was the payment for our sins. So Atheists aren't the "sin-iest of sinners". All sinners are equal. When a murderer asks for forgiveness, God looks at the heart. He looks at all the hearts. Like I said before, God doesn't have a religion. Atheism is a religion, believe it or not. You have faith that there is no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

If God "encourages" bad things like discrimination, then why in the world would Jesus hang out with sinners. Yes, Jesus Christ did hang out with sinners. Yes, He did hang out with those who were doing wrong in their life. HOWEVER, we must understand WHY. Jesus Christ was NOT hanging out with these people because He preferred them to the righteous. He was NOT hanging out with them because He enjoyed sinful behaviors. He was NOT hanging out with them because He wanted to be exposed to wickedness. While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the “sinners” and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?” On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Mark 2:15-17. He came to the sinners to repent, meaning to turn away from sin. In fact He calls them to do so. At the call, sinners then make a choice. They either recognized that they're living in sin, and then followed Jesus Christ in order to learn how to repent, change, and become Christians, OR they choose to reject the Gospel (reject Jesus) and stay in a sinful life, not following in the path of Christ.

Plus, this is how I view the world. I may not agree with the decisions but I won't not like someone because they are homosexual, Atheist, Buddist, Muslim, etc. I don't turn my back on someone because of that.

What highly irritates and offends me is the fact that you call God and the devil the same. The are entirely different, polar opposites. However, Lucifer, the devil, was once one of God's angels. Lucifer's pride blinded him from what was important. God got mad at him and Lucifer fell, taking as many as he could. He was cast into the depths of Hell, becoming the king of all evil, deceit, and Hell itself. He tries to take as many of God's creations to, through my eyes, get back at God. I say through my eyes because that's how I see it but don't quote me on that. Lucifer and his demons/angels hate things that look like God, and it just so happens we are created in his image. They cause the pain and hurt in this world.

Christians have had brutal deaths too. They have been stoned to death, burned alive, hung, dismembered by animals for entertainment, crucified, dragged through streets until very little life was left, tied to motors until their hands were melted, a mother had to watch her two kids be murdered right in front of her before she died. Yet no one backs down. For me, there is no greater honor than to die for my God. No greater way to die. They can't do anything negative to me because I know the last breath I breathe here is the first breathe I breathe in the arms of Jesus, my Lord, my Savior, my Shepherd. No it is not blind faith because I have seen God work, I've seen Him move.

You may not want to here this I'm praying for you. Is there anything I can pray for that you need? Just remember, even though this is a debate, I want you to know I'm here if you need me. Not just if you want answers or argument. I want to be here as your friend, if you let me.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
"You have faith that there is no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be."
- I believe in supernatural things. I believe in lots of things outside of nature, and I don't believe that nature is everything.
I would say that Atheism is a belief system, much like religions, but religions are more organised in their beliefs, ie christianity is organised around doctrines presented in the bible. Atheism doesn't have a doctrine. But I definitely agree that Atheism is religion-like. I just think its insulting to both Atheism and religions to call Atheism a "religion."

Well, my opinions on Jesus's role in the bible don't agree with that interpretation of Jesus, obviously. So I think that Jesus hanging out with sinners makes sense in the context of the bible and what the bible tries to say about the tension between living a human life and a christian life. I just don't believe that Jesus demonstrating how to be a christian is anything more than a literary tool to push a social, political agenda.

I guess my point is that I see things that "God" does in the bible that I consider to be evil. I think calling homosexuality is a sin is evil and it causes people pain. The biblical God uses his power to manipulate people into doing his bidding in the same way that the devil does, except God calls it "good." I don't think its "good" to encourage your followers to hurt other people and I don't see any real difference between the bibical God and the biblical Lucifer.

Excactly. Most groups have been persecuted in some way. And that is wrong. I just see the bible as a tool that people use to justify that hatred, from any angle.

Whether you pray for me or not is your business, not mine. It means nothing to me except that you think I need what you think you need. I have no need for your religion and I find the suggest that I need your religion insulting. But like I said, what you do in the privacy of your own mind has no impact on my life and it makes you feel better, then go ahead and do whatever you need to do. But it isn't for me, or for my soul, its for you and you alone.
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Do you believe all science is factual?
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
Nope. I don't even think "facts" are factual. Everything is contextual. What counts as "fact" changes as the way we can investigate things changes.
più di un anno fa Dragonclaws said…
If I may add, science has never been claimed to be anything more than a best guess. It changes with new evidence so that our understanding of the universe grows but can never be complete because the universe is too great to ever be fully understood. Atheists appreciate science because it changes to be better than it was before, while fundamentalist concepts can never be changed despite growing evidence against them. Science is the best guide to how the universe actually works.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
smile
^ Agreed.
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Misanthrope, what exactly do you believe?
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
What do you mean? What do I believe about what?
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Like do you believe in a higher power, there is nothing beyond ourselves?
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
No, I do not believe in a higher power. Yes, I believe there is plenty out there that is beyond us.
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
like what?
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
More planets, other forms of life, galaxies, universes etc.
più di un anno fa weresmyanime said…
i agree with misanthrope86 their is a ton of galixes/pants millons and who knows maybe life and maybe some more
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
These kinds of things give me happiness... Why do you believe there are other life forms and universes? The word universe is telling. Uni means one, therefore there is only one universe. Sure there are other galaxies and planets. We are created to long for something more than ourselves whether some choose to or not.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
There is only one universe that we know we experience. So the term 'universe' is the only terms we can use with relative certainty. I appreciate your interpretation, but its not one that I share.

I think that sense of "longing for something more than ourselves" can easily be explained in evolutionary terms. I think when we think about the universe or god or whatever, we want an explanation so that we can feel safer and not be confused by questions that we actually don't have answers to. Its fine if you see that as "god," but again, that isn't a view I share. That makes no sense to me in the context of my life, and it gives me no comfort to think that a "god" explains it all. That explanation raises many, many more questions than it answers.
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
ask away and ill answer as best i can. ill get back to you when i have the answer to your question.
più di un anno fa ImAnEasel said…
Why can't God make the world bigger, instead of killing people?
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
The world is already so big. He doesn't take joy in killing people. He does, however, enjoy the experience shared in seeing his face. He is saddened by those who will not spend eternity with him. I don't know if I made it clearer. The reason why people die is because our lives are full with sin, or things we do wrong. The punishment for sin is death. A baby's death is not because they sinned for they cannot sin. Those kind of deaths I don't understand. All things are made known when we die.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
The punishment for sin is death, then what if someone lives their life completely without sin? Are those people immortal?
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
Give me an example of those people who have never done anything wrong in their entire lives. The exception is a very young child. Their deaths along with babies I have no understanding of.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
If didn't ask you if it was possible, I asked you what if someone lives their lives completely without the christian understanding of sin? Hypothetically, I have lived my life without a single sin, am I immortal?
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Not necessarily. It also says in the Bible that sin can have punishments that last three or four generations.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
So, even if I live a perfect Christian life, I still go to hell because my great-great-great grandma stole a loaf of bread?
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
not at all. If you believed in Christ and accepted him as your personal savior you go to heaven. We DIE because of sin. " For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23. Gir said that it can be punished to the third and forth generations. It's punishable until the next generation realizes the mistakes and learns from them.
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più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
That brings me back to my original question: if I never sin at all, will I be immortal?

gir5136's comment seems to suggest that even if I am super-sinless, I'll still die because of what someone I never met may have done decades ago. Is my death explained by the sins of other people who have nothing to do with me?
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
I said it CAN happen. It is entirely impossible to be immortal. "Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other."- Ecclesiastes 3:19. Oh and you said" I didn't ask you if it was possible" so why are we still talking about it? You aknowledge that it's not possible.
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più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
I think it IS possible to live life without "sin," depending on your definition of sin. But I think immortality is impossible. Hence why I question the idea that death is the punishment for sin.

I asked because you said that the punishment for sin is death, so logically it would seem that a sinless life would mean immortality, as a sinless person has no reason to be punished and therefore would not lose their life. I'm questioning the logic behind the idea.
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
First of all sin is anything you do that you know you're not supposed to do or not do something that you should. It can be as small as taking someone's toy or as big as murder. Second are you really wanting to know or are you just here to argue?

You have sinned. However people did live longer in the Bible because they asked Gd for forgiveness and they were called righteous people. There is a guy in the Bible that God called a man after God's own heart. That was David. However, he was the guy who did everything wrong. He coveted a woman, slept with her even though she had a husband, tried to kill her husband and more. However, he was the greatest repenter. He always grew sorrowful and ashamed and asked God for forgiveness. There were only two people in the Bible who didn't die. They were Elisha and Enud. I don't have an answer as to why God chose not to kill them and there is not an answer for that I do believe. They are the only exceptions.

Finally it is impossible to live a completely sinless life.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
I'm asking because I'm fascinated by the logic. I want to know how people come to these conclusions and justify them. Asking you questions about your beliefs isn't arguing, its just asking. If you can't answer my questions, it doesn't mean I'm wrong to ask those questions.

So... not sure what your David story is meant to illustrate in terms of this discussion... He still died, right? He was punished for his sins through death, even though God thought he was awesome for feeling bad about his sins. Were Elisha and Enud sinless?

In your opinion it is impossible to live a sinless life. I don't believe that. I believe it is possible, but I don't believe that immortality is possible. Do you believe immortality is possible?

If we all sin and we all die, what is the point in the biblical God anyway?
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
Well I'm glad you aren't here to just argue. I've tried to answer someone else's questions but they only asked to argue. It is possible to ask question just for the sake of arguing.

It doesn't say much at all about Enud. Just how old he was when God took his body to Heaven. Elisha was a prophet and was really close to God. He (including his body) was taken to Heaven in a firey chariot. He absolutely did sin but he asked God for forgiveness.

It isn't just me believing it is impossible to live sinless life. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans3:23. I believe nowadays, people can't be immortal because God gets put on the back burner as opposed to goverment and God were tied together.

The point of believing in God and that he sent his Son to die for my sins so I don't have to die eternally, is the fact that all the sorrows and pain of this world will be no more. I don't have to worry about the pain that so and so caused me. I get to have a more personal relationship with God.

I'd rather believe in God and Heaven and all and be wrong than not believe and be wrong. Just tell me what would you do if you found out you were wrong and it was too late?
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
So, the message in the bible really is that no matter what you do, you are still going to die anyway. Death is a universal punishment because people are incapable of good? I don't see how death is justified as punishment when everyone, without exception gets the same punishment. That makes death a standard, not a punishment...

Like I said, it depends on your definition of sin. By my personal definition of sin, the christian religion encourages some of the worst sins. I believe it is possible to live life without sin. What the bible says about sin is irrelevant to my definition of sin.
By definition, the people who achieved immortality in the bibical times should still be alive... And yet they aren't...

If your sins have already been paid for, shouldn't you then be immortal, because the debt is clear and there is no need for the "punishment" of death? How is death a "punishment" for "sins" if what awaits you is eternal awesomeness?

What if you are wrong and there is some other religion's god/goddess who sends you to a hell-like afterlife simply because you didn't believe in him/her, or because you sinned according to his/her religion's rules? Your gamble is no different than mine.
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
It is alot different gamble.Some of the places of the Bible have been found. Many things have been found.

I will not die for a second time. It's like a car. It gets from point a to point b.

I don't have much time so I'll sum it all up as much as I can. I have sinned and so has Gir. I still die the first time. Then I live in paradise forever. I have to die to my old self to become something new and better. I came back to God so he rewards me. I believe he is God. That is why. I get awesomeness because I Admitted that I have sinned, I Believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins with my heart, and I have Confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and can atone for my punishment.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
And a lot of other religions and belief systems have evidence that they are real too. It is exactly the same gamble.

So death isn't the punishment, its the step before the punishment or the reward?

What if someone doesn't know they have sinned and therefore can't admit it to God? Do they get punished for their genuine innocent ignorance? If you live your life sinning, and then say "my bad" at the end, haven't you cheated your way into God's good books?
più di un anno fa gir5136 said…
I made a mistake. It was Enoch and Elijah. Elijah was a prophet that was so close to God he could perform miracles in God's name. He parted the water, with God's power, and him and his apprentice walked across on dry land. Then the apprentice, Elisha, witness fire come down from heaven. Then he saw Elijah leave in a firey chariot to heaven, leaving behind only a cloak. In the New Testiment, they mistake Jesus as Elijah, the townspeople.

I just want to make one thing clear. Jesus was the only perfect person because he is God in the flesh. I want to tell the illustation of how God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one. Our world is like a fishbowl. Let's pretend for a second that someone sticks three of their fingers in the fish bowl. All we see is the three fingers and not the fact that it's connecting to something bigger.

Name evidence of a religion. Please share.

Death is the small punishment before the bigger punishment or reward. If sin didn't enter into the world we would be able to walk and talk with God like you would a best friend. You would be able to hear him clearly right now.

It says in the Bible " To him who knows the right thing and doesn't do it, to him it is sin." If a person did a wrong thing and didn't know it was wrong then I don't believe it counts. You can't just say my bad to everything because you have to mean it with your heart. God looks at the heart when you pray and ask for forgiveness. You can't trick him. There is always a consequence for the actions. If at the end someone genuinely asks for forgiveness with his or her last breath and accept Jesus as his or her personal Savior he or she enters the Kingdom of Heaven. He or she has not cheated the way into God's Book of Life. You can never cheat your way into the Book of Life. "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?' Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.' "- Matthew 7:22-23. The reason why he says that is because so many people put on a show for others but never have an actual relationship with God.

Oh and I noticed that you said that Christianity encourages the worst kinds of sins. Please elaborate I genuinely want to know.
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
Gir you type alot. Death is a punishment because, to get straight and to the point, we were supposed to be immortal. However Satan tempted Eve to do the one thing God told her not to do, to eat from the forbidden fruit. Then she gave some to Adam and childbirth pain started and man had to work for food.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
[Insert any religion here]. Most religions claim to have irrefutable proof that their religion is the one true religion.

So the justification for death as punishment is that we are sinners no matter what, so we will all die, then we will be split off into groups of good people and bad people based on the degree to which sinned on earth and the degree to which we apologise for those supposedly bad things, correct? So a moderately sinful person who denies necessity to apologise for moderate "sins" gets punished in the afterlife, but an incedibly sinful person who says "my bad" with all his/her heart will get rewarded in the afterlife?

"If a person did a wrong thing and didn't know it was wrong then I don't believe it counts."
- Is that not a MASSIVE loophole?

If you genuinely believe you've done nothing wrong, you can't ask forgiveness. If I went up before your God right now and he told me I had to beg his forgiveness, I'd ask him what the hell I'd done that would needed his forgiveness. And the only things he would come up with are things that I don't believe are "sins." I can't admit fault to things I don't believe in. What happens to me? Do I go straight to the punishment department with the rapists and abusers because I lived my life to the best of my ability?
It seems to me that you can cheat. Even if genuinely bad people do genuinely beg for forgiveness, they still didn't make much of an effort to be "good" on earth, yet they get a free pass to heaven because they are sorry for being assholes? That seems just? Doesn't to me.

Christianity encourages people to believe in their inherent "bad"-ness (ie your sin arguments, Satan/Eve argument), particularly the inherent "bad"-ness of women and non-christians. This encourages believers of the bible to do horrible things. In the past this included slaughtering people of different faiths, and that still continues today to a lesser extent (ie killing abortion doctors).
Christian religions also continue to restrict the rights (or at the very least advocate for the restriction of rights) of various groups and institutions (ie women (specifically abortion rights), homosexuals (marriage rights), the scientific community (stem cell research), etc).
più di un anno fa gaz5136 said…
Woah... 1) just to clarify no one is considered "good" as in good and bad people. We all have sinned so we fall under the bad catagory. 2) This is going to be hard to swallow but all sin is the same. Sin is sin. God is so pure and holy that he can't be near sin. It doesn't matter what kind of sin it is. Who are we to judge someone else because of what they have done.

I have not heard Christians today slaughtering people. If there are, they are perverting their faith to justify killing.I personally do not agree with gays and lesbians. I love the person, disagree with the lifestyle. We don't promote sin.

The rights of Christians have been greatly restricted. In 1968, the Apollo 8 astronauts, Jim Lovell, William Anders, and Frank Borman, became the first humans to orbit the moon. The crew participated in a Christmas Eve television broadcast — the most watched broadcast in history up to that point — during which they each took turns reading from the Old Testament Book of Genesis as the lunar sunrise came into view. NASA got sued. We can't pray in public. For example before football games teams used to pray in the locker whether all the players were Christian or not. Now they can't.
più di un anno fa misanthrope86 said…
Exactly my point. The christian assumption that we start out as bad or "sinners" is a damaging assumption.

I don't believe that loving someone is as sinful as murdering someone, and I find it bizarre that people would support a religion that preaches that. It seems bizarre that someone who steals a loaf of bread to feed their family is as sinful as a rapist. Why are God's priorities so out-of-touch with real life?

It doesn't bother you that at any point in history christians slaughtered non-christians, with the support of the church? The justifications for the church-sanctioned mass-slaughter of the past and anti-abortion violence are exactly the same: the word of God.

As I have attempted to explain to people before, saying you hate the sin, and not the sinner, is of no comfort to the people you label sinners. The person and their lifestyle are one in the same.
Letting other people live their lives in safety and with dignity is not the promotion of sin, its the promotion of humanity. You aren't required to be gay and you aren't required to abuse the rights of people who have done no harm.

Are you equating the rights of women to health and crucial scientific endeavours that will help all of humankind to the right to impose your religion? You think the right to choose what happens to your body is the same as the right to participate in mass prayer before a football game?
più di un anno fa Mrs_Bungle said…
Great post misanthrope86!! Couldn't have said it better myself!

@gaz5136 - your post made me think of these two pics:

link

I mean seriously, you're honestly going to say that christians rights are being restricted when they're/you're the ones who have been trying to dictate how people live their lives for the last 2000 years!?!?

and

link

Jim Lovell, William Anders, and Frank Borman should have been asking where god was at this amazing time in human progress rather than reading from a book of fairy tales. As for football players not being able to pray in locker rooms, you really don't see a problem in the non-religious people being forced to pray (or at the very least, be forced to listen to other people's delusions) or is it only a problem when you can't go flaunting your "godliness" in front of other people? After all, doesn't the bible say "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Matthew 6:6