saBRUCAS, where do i even begin with your post? okay here we go...

1) i have every right to say that Brucas' history isn't relevant anymore... because as of right NOW, it isn't. No one knows 110% which couple will be endgame (even though if you have seen Mark's recent interviews, it's PERFECTLY clear that Leyton is the couple he wants), BUT the only way a couple's history is relevant, is if they are still together. So right NOW, Leyton is together, which means their history still applies. But Brucas... as far as their romantic feelings go, the LAST TIME they referred to those feelings was when they ended things, and officially decided that they were over... so no, since Brucas has been over for 5 years now, their history isn't relevant anymore and doesn't matter in the LEAST for the show NOW. IF Brucas becomes a couple again.. then we can talk about their history because it would actually make sense to do so. But for now, it's simply just that... HISTORY, and it's just a waste of time to refer to it at this point

2) i'm sorry but, YOU CANNOT HONESTLY TELL ME THAT LUCAS TRULY HATES PEYTON!!!!! no matter how much you say that "people always tell the truth when they're drunk"... there is absolutely NO way you can tell me that Lucas was telling the truth when he said that. If you hated someone, why on EARTH would you confess your love for them to the world by writing TWO books about them, and tell that person that you want to spend the rest of your life with them by proposing TWICE?!?! i'm sorry, but that "i hate you" means absolutely NOTHING and the fact that you Brucas fans are actually using that as a point against Leyton is a complete joke because you KNOW that he didn't mean it

3) you saying that "there are more Brucas fans" is TOTALLY inaccurate! there is NO possible way that anyone could know which fanbase is bigger. no matter how many website you go on, or how many polls you see, each website has a different number of fans for each couple. just like one website may happen to have more Brucas fans, another website may happen to have more Leyton fans. there is no OFFICIAL way to know which couple has more fans.. it's just impossible. and while YOU say that Brucas has more fans, I would say that Leyton has more fans by far (surprise, surprise, ofcourse people are going to say/think that the couple that THEY root for has more fans). So bottom line... you don't know anymore than i do which couple has more fans, no one knows.

4) you say that i need to watch the show over with an open mind, then maybe i'll see that Brucas is meant to be? um well this may come as a shock to you... but when most people first START watching a show, they usually DO have an open mind, because they don't know anything about the show, so why wouldn't they? so no, i don't need to watch the show over, because like people usually do... i STARTED the show with an open mind the first time

5) even after seeing Brucas in season 2 and 3, ofcourse they did have an emotional connection, no one can deny that... but every time i see them, i still can't look past the MAINLY physical connection that they had. so while they WERE involved romantically, i still think the physical part dominated most of their relationship. and if you'll remember... in the season 6 premiere, in the dream scenes... each dream scene included subtle hints about the couples. and in the Brucas dream scene, they talked about how they never see eachother, then Brooke said "makes coming home kind of sexy though"... implying that YES, their relationship was just mainly physical!

6)AGAIN, you saying that Leyton was "supposed to be the meant to be couple but they still don't have enough fans" is ALL YOUR OPINION! and it's funny that you mention "cheating" with Leyton. Them (well Lucas, Peyton never cheated) cheating on OTHER PEOPLE with EACHOTHER... isn't a point against Leyton, if anything, it's FOR them! The fact that Lucas cheated on both Brooke AND Lindsey with PEYTON, says something! Lucas never cheated on Peyton with anybody... he never had to because he didn't need anyone else other than Peyton! and the fact that they fell in love with other people doesn't mean a single thing, because in the end, they came back to EACHOTHER! all past relationships don't matter in the least as long as they come back to eachother in the end, like they have... which proves even more that they are meant to be!

haha you go kellyerin87!! every single thing that i am thinking when i read these posts, you know exactly how to put them into words! woo hooo GO LEYTON! :)

lol I'm gonna have to point out that you said there is no comparison between the two, hence you think Brucas' history is irrelevant and that's why Mickei did not debate with you. You shut Brucas and us out even before we can debate about it. But ask everyone else, your reasons why Leyton should be has many loopholes on it.

i'm not shutting anyone out at all... i just said that in MY OPINION, i don't think their history is relevant anymore... that doesn't mean that you all can't prove me wrong about that lol that's just what i think, just like you may think something completely different... and i would like to hear what these "loopholes" are??

I'm not a fan of long posts, I find it hard to read them.

if you want to say that Brucas should be together now, then you need to give reasons from the show NOW that support that. saying "Brucas should get back together now because they were great and so in love in high school" isn't a valid reason.
And your reason that Lucas wanted Peyton since the pilot and he wanted nothing to do with Brooke and Brooke practically shoved herself down his throat (not your exact words but yeah, that's your bottomline) is valid? OMG you've got to be kidding me! Even this is history already! Uhm I remember this happened back when they were in HS.

Oh yes you did, I mean, I think you've read my first post and I didn't mention anything about them being in HS, it is more like the feeling they leave me after I watch them so I can't be the person who defends them with the they were so cute in HS line. But for some people, this is the reason why they ship Brucas, and you saying that that is irrelevant means you are shutting them down. How can you say that that is irrelevant when it is part of their history? But when it comes to Leyton's history it is relevant because they are together now.

i think using past moments in high school is fine, as long as you're not using ONLY those to prove why a couple should be together NOW. when i said that thing about Brooke naked in Lucas' back seat, i was responding to the fact that Brucas fans say that Brucas is meant to be... and i think in order to be "meant to be" with someone, you have to look all the way back at how that couple first started. and that is how Brucas first started, which i don't think qualifies them as being "meant to be". like i said, just like you all are pointing out things about Leyton from the past that you don't like, ofcourse i'm going to point things out about Brucas in the past that i don't like, because that's ALL i have to go by... the past! they haven't been a couple since high school, so in order for me to talk about them as a couple, i HAVE to go back and look at them from high school. but as for saying that Brucas should be together NOW, i think you all need MORE than just their high school relationship to back that up, because that was so long ago. So if there are moments from season 5 that you think make Brucas relevant, those are the moments that would actually make me think that Brucas may still make sense, not moments from high school

Oh I haven't read your long post so if you talked about Brooke being naked @ the Lucas' car, I'm gonna go check it out later!

Then their history is so not irrelevant. Even Brucas in s5 is history, Jeyton, Chris and Haley, Brucas in s3, Leyton in s4, everything in the past is history.

And oh, I am not one saying that they SHOULD be together now, I am not delusional. There has been 0 Brucas scene in the first 4 episodes, how can that be BL is so endgame. But that doesn't mean that LP is endgame, as for me, everything is still open. Many things could happen in an episode, what more if it's the rest of the season. The truth is, I can wait. And see. My dad had his first love when he was in HS, I think he loved her more than anyone else in the world but surprise, he married my mom and they've been married for 20yrs now. So considering that both started back in HS, it's anybody's game.

I know sometimes we couldn't just understand some other people's reasoning, because if we all agree, we would be shipping only one couple.

you just said "i'm not the one saying that they should be together now"... then you said "there has been 0 Brucas scenes in the first 4 episodes, how can that be BL IS SO ENDGAME". contradicting yourself aren't you? saying that Brucas should be endgame is the same thing as saying that Brucas should be together now. and AGAIN, as long as Leyton is TOGETHER, their past IS still relevant! Brucas however, there IS NO Brucas anymore... so therefore their high school past (in my opinion) is simply just history. And normally i would think that you're right about it being anybody's game in the end, and that anything can happen the rest of the season... BUT Mark's recent interviews TOTALLY make me believe that Leyton is endgame. He's talked about how Lucas and Peyton are soulmates, and he's said "since the pilot, we have created a world where Lucas and Peyton are meant to be together", and that he has ALWAYS known that he wanted Lucas to be with Peyton. So with all of that coming straight from Mark's mouth... it all sounds pretty self explanitory to me and pretty clear that Leyton is the couple he wants in the end. He wouldn't spend so much time making Lucas and Peyton meant to be, for no reason. AND the show thought that season 4 was going to be their last, they weren't planning on a season 5. So, at the time Mark thought that the season 4 finale was going to be the series finale... which means that he was ending the show (or so he thought) with the couple that he WANTED... LEYTON!

but i've had enough debating for one day... so i'll be back tomorrow to keep defending my couple! :)

lol you totally did not understand me! I was asking a question, I said there has been no Brucas scenes since the dream sequence so how can that say that BL is endgame! I am not saying that they are! I'd be stupid if I say that they are.

And that's what you choose to believe, that Leyton is endgame. You choose to read that from Mark's interview, that he wants Leyton in the end. And why do you think there had been a s5 and s6? The fact that he put up another 2 seasons means that he wanted to do more with the show. And yes, they could just have killed off the show in s4 and let Leyton have their happy ending but they didn't. So as far as I see it, endgame is still open.

lol yeah, you left me the first time we debated! :D

wow this is intense debate and I thought the guys in the war zone were really intense.

I totally agree with brattynemz

it’s an open ending for who is end game. I think that your always going to love your first love.

I think (my opinion) in Brooke case I think it Lucas for her.
During the show Lucas has loved Peyton and Lindsay...Peyton loved Lucas and Jake...who has Brooke loved...Lucas. People can say chase...but I never saw love in that.

I think when it comes to history it's all-important. It makes them how they are.

Plus I always wonder if Peyton was so in love with Lucas why did she say no in LA the first time. I've always seen that when Peyton can't have Lucas she wants him and when she does have him they don't work.

eg..season 1- she had her chance and said no...than brucas started and than she wanted him. brucas broke up and than they didn't get together

during season 2 brucas weren't dating and she didn't want him. during season 3 brucas get back together...she wants him but tries to hided it behind Jake.

they get together and work for a while...than she says no and there lives are to complicated for it to work.

When Peyton comes back, Lucas is with Lindsay and she wants him.

Quick question (and I no this is pasted but want to no)
When you say that the “I hate you” was a mistake because he was drunk…than is it fair to say that the kiss in the library meant nothing and it was a mistake because Peyton was dying and losing a lot of blood and not in her right mind???????


ENDGAME IS STILL OPENED....

lol join us! But it's only the two of us now, we can't possibly debate about Brucas. :D

It seems like i have seen this before. I think i have gotten any a debate before and that wasn't pretty. We can debate on this issue all the time it wouldn't get anywhere you believe what you believe and we believe what we believe.

Yeah you're right.

it's true and I think it is really stupid to be juding endgame after four episodes that is not what that word means. It means ending the show together and we are a long way away from that. I am getting real sick of endgame. Before you ask what i would suggest to use if i don't like the word endgame I'll tell you it FTW that is so much better.

Ok then, Brucas FTW! lol as much as it is surprising, I don't really care who ends up with who as long as Brooke has her happy ending. I would just think that Mark is a s*cky writer and that at least I have Chair. lol.

yep it is. Even though I get frustrated sometimes in war zone those guy crack me up those theories are so damn ridiculous.

ITA! I think some are only using 1/4 of their brains, I mean they've got to listen to what they're saying. I'm gonna go now too, school stuff. be back later! :)

ok talk to later

abs07- OMG, abs "I was now" means that he was then (when he was writing it)how is your comrehension? Just because the sentence contains 'was' doesnt mean he loved her before!
"I was NOW!" You cant just cut the sentence like that. He says "NOW" meaning he wasnt before but now he is!
Exactly there only so many ways to interperupt it and I dont how you came to yours.
Your taking my "wasnt" totally out of context. I said that he wasnt in love with her before but when he was writing it he was.

I dont know why you guys dont get it but S4 is a huge reason why Leyton doesnt have fans. You cannot have 2 seasons that prove that BL is meant to be and then the next season have Lucas saying things like "Peyton and I were always meant for eachother and every instinct to the contrary was a denial of a simple truth" These kind of things make LP fake and forced. LP were just words they didnt show anything for them. There was no buildup, especially on Lucas' part.
Lucas had a flashback before they got together to prove that they've always been meant to be? doeant work that way.
People cannot not all of sudden say "oh OK" and start shipping such a fake couple. And espcially when we SAW Brucas fall for each other and fight for each other.
We all know that Lucas didnt love Brooke in S1 and no one is saying that he did. But then again Lucas wasnt in love with either of girls in S1.

kellyerin87-
1) i have every right to say that Brucas' history isn't relevant anymore... because as of right NOW, it isn't. No one knows 110% which couple will be endgame
NO one said you dont have the right to say that but its wrong and makes no sense.
Just like you said "No one knows 110% which couple will be endgame." Since nobody knows who endgame is going to be, no one can say that the couple's history is irrelevant. You're contradicting your self. And Mark very possibly can make Brucas endgame.

2)"No matter how much I say he was drunk?" Its a fact when youre drunk you speak the truth. But that is besids the point. Why in the hell would Mark Schwan put that in if it meant NOTHING? Which brings me to my next point, this is exactly why people have a hard time shipping Leyton...you never know how Lucas is feeling towards Peyton. One minute he hates her and wants Lindsay, and the next he wants to marry her. And I have been making this point since forever: they are fake and they dont make sense at all!

3)It might be inaccurate but all the polls are dominated by Brucas, there was this poll for season 6 premiere (I think its the latest BLP poll) asking if you're happy that Lucas chose Peyton or NO, you wanted him to pick Brooke, or No you wanted him to pick Lindsay. And Brucas is in lead. Even after 2 seasons of no Brucas, the fans that vote, prefer Brucas and want them as endgame. Even on fanpop Brucas has more fans but anyways...


4)IF you did then you would know that BL was not all physical and their relationship was completely different in S2 and S3.

5)Again you should watch S2 and S3 again. Because anyone who watched those seasons would know that they were soo much more. But I do agree they have physical attraction, which....LP lacks severely!

6)I dont know about you but a couple thats only happy or can only get together when they're cheating is a pretty crappy couple.
Well he sorta did cheat on Peyton too with Nikki. And sorta with Lindsay too because LP never really broke up and he just got together with Lindsay and asked her to marry him...and sorta with Brooke too when he kissed Brooke in 5.05 (I wonder what would have happened if Brooke hadnt stopped it and if Lucas told Peyton about it...oh yeah Peyton would have gotten what she desereved)
Plus a couple that cheats and makes the same mistakes over and over again is NOT meant to be!
What ever you said proves the complete opposite...so thanks.

ha.... saBRUCAS i'm not even going to bother responding to your points because every single thing you just said makes NO SENSE! all you did was repeat what you said in your first reply to me... which i have already argued. if you don't agree with what i replied with, then that's fine... but i stand by every bit of it. everything that i argued back with, i feel like all you said was "that's not true" and "that's your opinion", but you didn't say anything from the SHOW that supports that fact that i'm wrong.

and no, i STILL don't think the fact that Lucas said "i hate you" means a single thing! and you act like he's gone back and forth so many times between hating her and loving her, and that's not true in the least. if i remember correctly, that is the ONLY time he has said that he hated her, and again, we ALL know that that was just a complete joke. and yes, Mark would put that in there for a reason... to add a twist and throw everybody off! he wouldn't have Lucas go back the VERY NEXT episode and take it back, if he really meant it! AND again, he wouldn't have Lucas PROPOSE to her, if he really hated her... what sense does that make?

and as far as Lucas loving other people and Peyton loving other people (whoever said it)... that does NOT matter!! all that matters is their love for eachother! 90% of people love more than one person in their life... that's just part of life. and AGAIN, as long as they come back to EACHOTHER in the end... that's all that matters! and whoever made the comment about Lucas loved Lindsey, Peyton loved Jake, and Brooke ONLY loved Lucas... are you serious??? just becuase you didn't SEE the Love between her and Chase, doesn't mean it wasn't there. They CLEARLY TOLD eachother that they loved eachother... you don't need any more proof than that... you obviously just DIDN'T WANT to see it.

and oth-brucas4ever, PEYTON DID NOT SAY NO in LA! if you actually watch the episode, she says that she WANTS TO MARRY HIM, just not right then! i'm so sick of people saying that she said no, because it's perfectly clear that she didn't! Lucas was just pouting because he wasn't getting exactly what he wanted, when he wanted it for a change, so he acted like a 5 year old and left (which he later clearly regretted in season 6, i might add, becuase he proposed AGAIN).

and back to saBRUCAS, you saying that "a couple that cheats and makes the same mistakes over and over again is NOT meant to be", that doesn't make any sense! if they were constantly cheating on EACHOTHER, then yes... i would say they're not meant to be. But they always cheated WITH eachother, BIG DIFFERENCE! That means that no matter who Lucas was with... he couldn't stay away from PEYTON! How can you possible use that against them??

And you Brucas fans need to get your story straight. One second you say that Peyton was an awful friend to Brooke for "going after Lucas", then the next... you're bashing on the fact that in season 1 Peyton "said no" to Lucas... she did that to be a GOOD FRIEND TO BROOKE! you all are never happy! she tries to be a good friend to Brooke, and you nag on her for not really wanting to be with Lucas and saying no to him, THEN she wants to be with Lucas, and you nag on her for not being a good friend to Brooke... you can't have it both ways!

what peyton did in season one was bad but shes knows what she did and she wouldnt do it agen but the reason i dont like them is ya cant keep screwing people over and keep getting away with it

ok you can't classify it as all Brucas fans because not all of that we need to get are story straight. not all Brucas fans say that Peyton is an awful friend you just can't classify it to all the Brucas fans.

Their really is no point in gonna back in forth because you believe in Leyton and we believe in Brucas and you can point to examples but I won't see it like that or other Brucas fans.

wel said terra i love peyton and i always have and after season one and even in season one at the cheer tornament etc she has been a great friend to brooke

thank you I just don't like it when fans classify stuff like that to all fans. It is just stupid.

okay when i say all you Brucas fans there is no reason to take that literally... i think you're making a big deal over nothing. People say "all you Brucas fans" and "all you Leyton fans" all the time, if i'm talking about you, you know it, if i'm NOT talking about you, then you know that too. If you're not one of the Brucas fans that say the things i'm referring to, then you should know that i'm not referring to you... so what's the big deal? and no, i have not come across a SINGLE Brucas fans that hasn't said Peyton was an awful friend to Brooke, so i DO think that me saying "all you Brucas fans" is completely justified

but she isnt an awful friend to brooke shes a great friend tro brooke

kellyerin87- every single thing I said makes no sense or you cant argue anymore because you have lost?

When people start saying "i'm not even going to bother responding to your points because every single thing you just said makes NO SENSE!" it means they have lost the argument.

Obviously you, an LP fan, wouldnt think it meant anything..(But if he had said I love you Peyton it would have meant everything...right?) But I think it did...and soo do many other people.

This is exactly what I said: "you never know how Lucas is feeling towards Peyton."
And you said "and you act like he's gone back and forth so many times between hating her and loving her, and that's not true in the least."
Not quite what I said...eh?
He is never sure about his feelings towards Peyton.

all that matters is their love for eachother! 90% of people love more than one person in their life... that's just part of life. and AGAIN, as long as they come back to EACHOTHER in the end
Exactly! But the series didnt end yet so we dont know who will be together in the end. You act as though the series already ended and Leyton is endgame...god!!

PEYTON DID NOT SAY NO in LA! if you actually watch the episode, she says that she WANTS TO MARRY HIM, just not right then! i'm so sick of people saying that she said no
What do you think an engagment is? Its a promise, you dont HAVE to get married right then and there. People stay engaged for years!!!
Nobody cares what your sick of!!!!! Didnt you make this to debate? deall with it and debate!!! You saying youre sick of things doesnt prove anything and doesnt change our views at all!

and back to saBRUCAS, you saying that "a couple that cheats and makes the same mistakes over and over again is NOT meant to be", that doesn't make any sense! if they were constantly cheating on EACHOTHER, then yes... i would say they're not meant to be. But they always cheated WITH eachother, BIG DIFFERENCE! That means that no matter who Lucas was with... he couldn't stay away from PEYTON! How can you possible use that against them??
You have got to be kidding me?!?
First of all if youre gonna qoute me then qoute the whole thing, because I said they HAVE cheated on eachother too.
But that is not even the point...The point is a couple who cheats, hurts people, and lies to get together should NOT be endgame.
To YOU cheating might mean they cant stay away from each other or that they are meant to be but not to me !!! First of all when ever they cheated Peyton was the one who intiated it...the only time Lucas cheated on Brooke was in S1 which was also intiated by Peyton...and you could tell in S2 finale that that was the biggest mistake.
Ill tell you how I can use it against them...because cheating is not right!!! its considered a bad thing!!!
How can you use it for them? How can you make cheating out to be a positive thing? its pathetic...Leytons pathetic!

And you Brucas fans need to get your story straight. One second you say that Peyton was an awful friend to Brooke for "going after Lucas", then the next... you're bashing on the fact that in season 1 Peyton "said no" to Lucas... she did that to be a GOOD FRIEND TO BROOKE! you all are never happy! she tries to be a good friend to Brooke, and you nag on her for not really wanting to be with Lucas and saying no to him, THEN she wants to be with Lucas, and you nag on her for not being a good friend to Brooke... you can't have it both ways!
I have always hated Peyton and I dont see it changing ever, but there are MANY MANY BLers who love Peyton.
Yeah Iam going to bash her for both of the reasons because both of them were stupid as hell. She could have been with Lucas before Brooke got involved but she said "NO"
Then when Brooke got with Lcuas she suddenly decided she wanted Lucas and went behind Brooke's back! even thouGH Brooke had asked her a billion times if she was fine with Brucas and she would have broken up with Lucas for Peyton...but Peyton decided to cheat!
And then when Brucas break up and Brooke finds out...Peyton is now free to be with Lucas but all of a sudden she cares about Brooke now? and this is after already hurting her!!!!
You cant be a good friend after going behind your best friends back. I remember when Peyton goes to see Lucas and Lucas tells her that he broke up with Brooke and Brooke is calling Peyton because she is SOOO hurt that Lucas broke up with her, she declines the phone call then hugs Lucas. What a great friend!!!
This is why I dont like Peyton.
Peyton is an awful friend and I would never ever want friends like her. EVER!!!

It's not that she is a bad friend, sometimes people don't think straight when they really like someone. And it isnt like Brooke had always been the greates friend anyway. But they both made up for it one way or another. Peyton has tried to be there for Brooke numerous times, but Brooke did not always want it. Im not saying that Peyton didnt make some poor choices but she wasnt a terrible friend. Lucas treats Peyton way better then he treated Brooke, and Brooke needs to find someone else.

exactly Mark4Ever! both Peyton AND Brooke have done things to screw up their friendship, so Peyton isn't any more to blame than Brooke is, but that is history and doesn't even matter anymore. But yes, anyone can see that Lucas DOES treat Peyton better than he treated Brooke... therefore THEY make the most sense, not Brucas. And saBRUCAS, i have NOT "lost the debate" just because you keep repeating the same stuff over and over, doesn't mean you've won, and just because i'm NOT willing to repeat the same stuff over and over, doesn't mean i've lost either. We're clearly never going to agree on this, and i still stand by every single thing that i said. EVERY SINGLE THING! and i'm not trying to change your opinion about Leyton or Peyton, just like you aren't trying to change my opinion about Brucas. and i still think the whole cheating thing is absolutely ridiculous... them just wanting to be together is all that matters, if that hurts people in the process then that sucks, but everyone has to put themselves first sometimes, and Leyton deserves to be happy for once... and them being together NOW isn't hurting anybody so what is your point? how does them just wanting to be TOGETHER make them pathetic? that makes them IN LOVE! Bottom line is that you have your opinions and see the show your way, and i see it another way, we're clearly never going to agree on anything or change eachother's opinions. the whole point of this topic isn't to "win" a debate or change the other ship's mind about a certain couple... the point of it is to speak your mind about the two couples, and throw your perspective out there. but no, while i don't have any problem with debating, i'm not just going to keep going around in circles repeating the same stuff over and over and over like you are, because that IS pointless. you don't agree with me, and i don't agree with you... clearly nothing is going to change that! Lucas and Peyton are together NOW, and are ENGAGED! Brucas has been over since the end of season 3/beginning of season 4, and in the show, that was FIVE YEARS AGO. We haven't seen ANY of Brucas romantically since then, and according to Mark, "the triangle is romantically over"... so to me, that speaks for itself! GO LEYTON! :)

this isnt even a war the bottem line is you have reasons for liking leyton and thats fine ya no and we have our reasons for liking brucas and thats fine to the reason i dont like leyton is they cant keep screwing over people and then everything being ok i also think brucas have way better chemistry and im to in love with jeyton to accept peyton with lucas

another thing that bugs me is that alot of leyton fans are huge jeyton fans to not saying you all are btw and its like if you like jeyton could you not accept them brucas naley and jeyton is the way it should be in my perspective obviously not yours and i love all 3 of these couples

no i'm not a fan of Jeyton... because people seem to forget that while Peyton clearly did love Jake, she also LEFT HIM to go BACK TO LUCAS. i agree that Peyton and Jake did have good chemistry, and they did have their cute moments, but i have a hard time liking them better than Leyton because Peyton's heart was never really all the way with Jake... the fact that she left him to go back to Lucas says a lot. Plus Jeyton doesn't have all the history that Leyton has, so to me there's just no real comparisson between the two, i just could never be satisfied with Jeyton over Leyton.. but that's just me!

saBRUCAS, I didn't modify luke's words. You can interpret them how you want, I'm getting sick of repeating myself. I don't know what else to tell you. Even some brucas fans see it the same way. Why wouldn't luke just say I "AM" now and would always be in love with PSawyer. I don't even care. It doesn't make a difference. The fact that he said "Peyton and I were always meant for eachother and every instinct to the contrary was a denial of the following truth." THAT statement talks of the past as well. That trumps his relationship with every other person as he's said he was always meant to be with Peyton. It wasn't like he never wanted to be with her again after s1, he said "every instinct to the contrary was a DENIAL of the following truth." Therefore he admitted he was in DENIAL for all those years - and it showed. It was never about "flipping a switch in his emotions". You can believe what you want. I know you're pissed about s1 and you never saw it add up when 409 came around, but I'll show you what me & many leyton fans saw over the seasons that led to 409 (some of the content was pasted/edited from a previous pick):

Season 2: Leyton's split in 1.15 did not go over smoothly. Yes, they were able to be friends eventually, but then luke screwed up with the whole Nikki thing and he changed in Peyton's eyes. So in s2, they went their separate ways cause honestly I think it was hard for them to be friends. There were a few scenes here and there, but overall, they drifted apart, and found solace in different ppl (brooke/jake) - and walked their journeys falling in love with different people. What mattered was, by the end of the season, they found their way back and spent the whole summer together and regained a friendship.

Season 3

- s3e1: "It's always gonna be there isn't it. You and me." It's pretty self explanatory, so let's move on.

- s3e10: The very morning after Brucas reunited - and were still in bed together, Peyton calls, doesn't even tell him what she needs, and still Luke drops everything (i.e Brooke) and goes after her. Then knowing that Brooke needs help with her clothing line ("How's it going" - Luke; "Like crap! Are you on your way back???" - Brooke), Luke chooses to help Peyton instead. Yes, ppl can call it "keeping a promise to a friend", but it's deeper than that. It was at the expense of being there to help his girlfriend who desperately needed him.

- s3e13: Wrote her a love letter that ended with the very same words he wrote to Peyton in one of his love letters he never sent to her (before s1).

- Never told Brooke about the kiss in s3e16 till he thought she knew and blabbed it instead @ Naley's wedding (s3e22).

- 3.17 Pushed Brooke away (which is understandable, but he didn't seem to have a problem talking to Peyton in the library that day - infact he was able to joke with her and be real with her: "If I told you I loved you would you hold it against me? Cause I do, Peyton; I'm sorry about your moms. I feel like I haven't been there for you as I should and I'm sorry." "You should let Brooke in. I know how you are; Brooke gave you her heart, you should give yours back" - notice luke didn't dispute that, cause he knew he hadn't been giving brooke his whole heart; and he wasn't about to as we see what happened in s3e20...)

- s3e20: Didn't call Brooke ONCE while he was away with his mom.

- s3e21: This is strictly interpretation, but the SECOND time luke said "hey! I love you, you know that?", there was a look on his face that made that line more than platonic.
When Peyton said "I love you too", Luke's face was self explanatory. It reaffirmed his phrase @ the beginning of the season: It's always gonna be there.

- s3e22: Look closely at naley's scene with the vows. When Nate says "I don't think anyone understood the love that I had for you. Cause if they did, they would have never doubted us.", Luke and Peyton looked at eachother (they too were not the favorited couple in the past; they too were underestimated for the love they shared so early in the show).

- Throughout s3, though Brucas had great times, Brooke felt like she was hanging on for dear life ("I am hanging on for dear life, but i need you to need me back!" - Brooke) they'd go days without a meaningful convo ("I missed you so much when that happened, but it never seemed like you missed me" - Brooke); and overall, he never let her all the way in ("Why won't ever just let me all the way in???" - Brooke): Summing up all the crap he pulled while they were going out, it broke her heart, which led to her dumping him cause she knew a relationship shouldn't be like that; and she just couldn't do it anymore. With Peyton on the other hand, he told her about the dealership fire, about him and brooke (good times and bad), and don't get me started on season 4.

- s4e1: Didn't call Brooke about the accident with the bridge; and decided to spend time with Peyton pretty much the whole day afterward (Talked about Peyton's newfound estranged brother at peyton's house; made a mix with Peyton @ his house).

Season 4

- s4e,2,3,4: While he claimed he was "trying to get brooke back", he was hanging out with Peyton everyday - which he knew (knowing Brooke now knew about the library kiss; knowing it reopened old wounds from s1) would hurt Brooke - but he still made that choice.

-s4e8: "I missed you so much when you broke up with me Brooke. but when I listened to whitey describe his love for camilla, I realized..." "he wasn't describing us." Then the guy goes straight to Peyton's and apologizes that he didn't spend more time with her? lol. I mean common! Did he ever apologize to Haley or any of his other friends when he spent time with Brooke (s2/3) or Peyton (s1/3/4/5)? No! Nuff said.

Brucas loved eachother, no doubt, but from the morning after they reunited, they were fighting fate. As they grew, their love did not grow with them. As I've described, they had constant problems that were beyond those of a normal relationship. Brooke also couldn't help but notice that luke constantly chose Peyton ("For once, can you put ME above your precious Peyton and do what I ask? Thanks!"). It always came back to Lucas and Peyton. I won't blame Peyton for brucas' demise, but she and Luke were a longtime coming, and Brooke knew it. Why do you think she asked: "So who do you want standing next to you? It's ok, go." She knew it, and Luke didn't look confused when she said it. You could see the look on his face. He smiled in a goofy exposed way, like he knew she was right. Luke had repressed his feelings for Peyton since they ended their affair in s1 (remember, they never ended with closure - it was due to circumstances that they separated, not because they stopped loving - at least that's how we saw it), and in that split moment @ the state championship (that you and some brucas fans may never understand) Luke realized where his heart always lied. It wasn't about falling in love with Peyton in that moment, it was realizing that he never stopped. Peyton's journey between s2-4 is a whole other page of writing as well that I won't get into now :P

I know you probably will disagree with everything I just said, but that's beside the point. I'm just writing to you what me and most leyton fans saw over the seasons. Things that most brucas fans probably missed/dismissed. Things that made it all add up for us. You don't have to understand. If you're gonna respond, please refrain from constantly repeating yourself, cause I just won't respond with repeated counterarguments.

When did I repeat myself?
I just responed to your post...you are the one that has been repeating yourself..with the "brucas being irrelevant and High school" and with the "leyton being meant to be because they have never cheated on each other"
How could anyone think that Lucas treats Peyton better? He proposed to her she said someday he moved on and didnt contact her for 3 yrs...then kissed Peyton then the same day proposed to Lindsay, said " I do" to Lindsay. Told Peyton he hated her and that she ruined his life.

Its good that you stand by every single thing you've said...but honestly I dont see the any support behind your arguments.
You keep saying the same thing and my response to it would be the same every single time
Leyton not cheating on each other (which the did) does not mean they are meant to be.
Brucas's history is not irrelevant...and it doesnt matter if they happened 5 years ago...they could still very well be endgame.

But obviously we're not going to agree, so thats that.

On Jeyton though...I absolutely LOVED Jake and Jeyton. Jake is one that treated Peyton right. And Peyton just is a better person when she's with Jake.

ahhh perfectly said abs07!! the bottom line is that there wouldn't be so MANY Leyton fans out there JUST because Mark has TOLD US that they're meant to be. the reason there are so many of us Leyton fans is because we actually like what we SEE in Lucas and Peyton. there were tons of Leyton fans way before Mark started telling everyone that he designed them to be meant to be, i know i was a Leyton fan from the VERY beginning, and Mark definitely wasn't telling people back then that Leyton were meant to be. So yes, we DO have a reason to like Leyton... them being soulmates and meant to be comes out through the SHOW... Brucas fans obviously just choose not to see it that way. And abs07 you were so right about Lucas' quote in his novel about him being in denial... i don't see how Brucas fans can just dismiss that... those are HIS WORDS! there's only one way to interpret that... "every instinct to the contrary had simply been a DENIAL of the following truth, i was now and would ALWAYS BE IN LOVE with PEYTON SAWYER." ...that can't have more than one meaning! lol and i also agree with you about people repeating the same stuff over and over... that doesn't accomplish anything it's just a waste of time! GO LEYTON! :)

lol oh my god LUCAS DID NOT CHEAT ON PEYTON.... EVER!!! him and Peyton were not together when he hooked up with Nikki... if they had officially been together then i garauntee you that Lucas would not have done that! get some better arguments because things that AREN'T TRUE don't count! and no i still don't think Brucas is up for endgame... go watch Mark's MULTIPLE RECENT interviews about Leyton! not once does he talk about Brucas or the love that they HAD. He talks about Lucas and PEYTON being meant to be, and ALWAYS KNOWING that he wanted Lucas to be with PEYTON! if you can't see that Leyton is the couple Mark wants from those interviews then it's clearly because you just don't WANT to see it, and i don't know what else to tell you lol

I mean I am not just saying that Lucas trated Peyton better because I am a fan of Leyton, even when I was a Brucas fan like the first two seasons or so, I saw that he really did love Peyton, and that he always ended up screwing Brooke over. I truly think that Brooke deserves someone that is going to love her for her, not the girl that hides behind all the clothes and makeup. I mean we all have our reasons for liking Leyton, Jeyton, Brucas and all the other couples. We all have our opinions on them. I mean I love Brooke to be honest with you she is my favorite character, and I see that if she and Lucas were to end up together, he would not make her happy, I think she needs to find someone like him, but that is in love with her and not her best friend

Okay so I’m not going to direct this at anyone person, but here goes some of my thoughts from reading this.

1. Being meant to be has NO bearing on the beginning of the couple! You have to look at the END…people who are meant to be always finding their way back, IN THE END!
2. I don’t think that Lucas hates Peyton, but I did find him saying it pointless, and another example of how Mark ruins Leyton for me. I also find it odd that Mia, just before that advised Peyton to get him drunk to get his true feelings out, because people always say the truth when they are drunk. Now Peyton does remind her that this logic of hers is coming from an 18 year old, but I still couldn’t shake the feeling.
3. The fact that he “was now and always will be in love with PS” is nice on paper but I mean as much as you want to believe that means from S1 on I still do not believe he was IN LOVE with Peyton then. I think he may have been infatuated, and towards the end he may have loved her on a certain level, but IN LOVE no. And the WAS only means past tense. Writing this at 22 IMO he was more likely referring to S4.
4. No person’s romantic history is irrelevant. If that were the case then Peyton and Lucas would have never gotten back together in S4. Leyton history is no more relevant than Brucas because they are currently together. That logic would not have flied for you in S2 S3 when Leyton was not together. Bottomline: every love teaches you something and if you truly loved someone no matter when it was HS or not you will always love them.
5. Brooke may have loved Chase, or said it rather, but I don’t believe it either. And further I believe Lucas has been the only guy she’s even been IN LOVE with.
6. The damned books. Well I’ll tell you why I dismiss them, because they are EDITED, and in my opinion not substantiated with appropriate actions! I’m not saying its going to happen or I even think it will but Mark could choose to twist those very words if he wanted to. A copy of his first draft could turn up and paint a very different picture. All I’m saying is that anything can still happen and if you like LP than it’s easy to appreciate those words, but for BL fans it just appears construed.

haha oh my gosh did you seriously just say that last comment about his books?? i'm sorry but that's probably the funniest thing i've ever heard... Brucas fans are just sinking to an all time low these days as far as their reasoning and excuses go. his books are HIS WORDS... if they weren't his words, there wouldn't even be any point of putting those quotes into the show with HIS VOICEOVERS... the fact that you would actually "dismiss" those books is hilarious and i'm sorry but that means that you are clearly just in denial about what HE wrote about PEYTON. lord knows that if he had wrote those things about Brooke you wouldn't be "dismissing" them. and even if he HAD written 2 books about Brooke, i can't imagine actually walking around saying that his words were edited and "construed"... i would accept the fact that HE WROTE IT! and the whole Chase thing... how can you just "not believe" that Brooke loved Chase? Brucas fans just choose not to believe/see things so much it's insane. you CAN'T deny what happens in the show, and what characters SAY in the show... Chase and Brooke telling eachother that they loved eachother means that they really did LOVE EACHOTHER. you can say that you "don't believe" it all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. lol these "arguments" that you all are coming up with for Brucas just keep getting more and more hilarious

I don’t think that Lucas hates Peyton, but I did find him saying it pointless,: for me it wasn't pointless; it was another hurdle leyton had to jump (peyton especially - it proved her love was never fleeting). What's amazing is their love survived it all, stronger than ever.

I also find it odd that Mia, just before that advised Peyton to get him drunk to get his true feelings out: Mark did that on purpose I believe, so that ppl could debate about it. For drama. Also, [knowing peyton, knowing her confidence in luke's love for her], if mia hadn't blurbed her "drunk truth" theory, Peyton probably wouldn't have taken it as personally. So I also think that blurb from Mia was for dramatic effect in peyton's favor. Anyhow, Lucas has never told a lie to peyton that he hasn't come and told the truth about later. So when he said: "I don't hate you", I know he meant it. That trumps the fool proof "drunk truth" theory.

I think he may have been infatuated, and towards the end he may have loved her on a certain level, but IN LOVE no. And the WAS only means past tense. Writing this at 22 IMO he was more likely referring to S4. Then why did his moment of clarity happen AFTER he had a flashback in s1? It took him all the way to the beginning. Then his words (as we all know very well by now): Simple Clarity. Peyton and I were always meant for eachother and every instinct to the contrary was a denial of the following truth: I was now and would always be in love with Peyton Sawyer." The word "always" takes us back to season 1 and the words connect. The words about being in denial [when he thought otherwise about who he was "supposed to be with"] tell us that every other relationship he's had over the years was him being denial (not to take away from his past love for brooke ok?). Again, his saying he was in DENIAL of the truth: was, now and would always be...back to season 1.

every love teaches you something and if you truly loved someone no matter when it was HS or not you will always love them. I didn't ever see brucas' relationship as irrelevant. I thought it was essential for both their growth processes. it was an example that you could love again (leyton in this case got to experience love with different ppl) but you'll always love a particular person all the more - Hence the term "Love of your Life". I do believe that brucas will always love eachother on a lower level, but not to the same degree as leyton (4.08 is the reason I say that - leyton never had a "4.08 closure moment" that demoted their love to a lower level; instead they had luke's TWO books, season 4's eternalizing words from both lucas and peyton in s4e19 & s4e21, & season 5's controversial moments/scenes, which carry their love to a higher, irrefutable level straight through to s6).

I’ll tell you why I dismiss them, because they are EDITED, and in my opinion not substantiated with appropriate actions! I think we've had this convo before, so I won't repeat much, i'll just say that Luke's book, edited or not, still has its essence intact. Luke wouldn't have allowed the book to be published if his words were construed in any way - editing was probably more for length/structure (to avoid rambling), etc. As for inappropriate actions following, love is love. Ppl do crazy things. S5 was luke's growth process (which was overdue): the guy was a mess when it came to dealing with Peyton while trying to date other ppl (cause deep down he knew he was sinking back into denial, and his fear simply repressed his ability to take a faith leap - Our feelings afterall are often our worst fears; in Luke's case, he was battling his worst fear till he finally grew up after s5). So though luke was "all over the place" as he quoted in s6e2, he's finally grown up and I'm sure now that his actions will definitely reflect his heart.

Kellyerin, I don't think Realluv meant Brase didn't love eachother, I think she meant she didn't think brooke was IN love with him. There's a difference. Which I think is a fair assumption. But there are definitely still feelings there: we all saw it in season 5 when she was jealous of Cheyton, so I guess we'll find out more if we ever see them reunite again :)

hahaha okay. those comments are way too long for me to read, because i dont have all that time..but i can only imagine what is being said. let me just say, i'm sorry to kellyerin87(especially), abs, and mark4ever..noone is helping you out and we all know that leyton has a great fanbase!! i'm just gonna state the truth..

LEYTON IS DESTINY! brucas was a high school relationship, and i don't know how people can think that they will still get back together, after luke had another epiphany, and chose peyton again! you guys can make all the excuses you want as to why brooke is the queen of hearts..(i think it's barbaric, and there is no way in hell that is the case..) but it doesn't change the fact that luke picked peyton, and she is definately who he loves.

LEYTON FOREVER <3

haha THANK YOU tvfan5!!! that is ALL that needs to be said right there!

you're welcome. and i agree with everything else that you said!

I know this is a little of topic and all but if you guys want to get into some good debates I got a good place for you it's called the war zone you guys can check it out. You are entitled to your opinion on Lp but I am never gonna see it your way and i respect you guys for it. Anyways here is the link.

link

Kellyerin. First of all. None of those comments were meant to be FOR BRUCAS, simply NOT LEYTON. You see my denial as you see it is not because I love Brucas so much that I can't see otherwise. Yes I see the facts, I don't dismiss that the books are real, but I simply was expressing how they don't mean as much to me. I'm not a Leyton fan. I can't apologize for that. Theres a feeling I get with Brucas that just doesn't compare to Leyton. But honestly, my dislike for Leyton S2-S5 is far stronger than my like for Brucas. But that is just how I feel. I don't think it is denial I think it is taste. Therefore, yes what I see in Lucas and Peyton's actions is distorted in that way, just as yours is. The cards are falling in Leyton's favor right now, and if you don't like them together, as I do, well hell I think its only natural to question things. And as for it being HIS WORDS, and if the situation were reversed...well the thing is they are not only his words, I agree that they have great significance to Leyton and their love but the simple fact remains that they are just words, and words can be manipulated. I'm not saying that they were, are, or will be, all I was saying is that there is a possible alternative that could be visited, and until Leyton moves me, I have every right to question it. I mean Lucas literally said I hate you, those were his words too, along with I am madly in love with Brooke. Yes the books have a very final tone to them and I am not dismissing the fact that he loves her, but anything can happen. It is not ridiculous to think that, OTH is a freakin drama, with twists and turns. And last, Abs was right, I was saying that Brooke was not IN LOVE with Chase...and there is a difference.

Abs, pointless was probably not the best word but its all I had at the moment.lol It just gave me more ammunition against Leyton, but you and I already discussed my distaste for it at length. But I can see how as a fan you felt it was a successful test of their love. As well as Marks choice to have Mia talk about getting him drunk. I would not be as patient as Peyton.
Last thing. You may be right about how they portrayed the flashback and the clarity moment. I'll admit I haven't watched S4 with as much intensity as you may guess as due to Leyton, but all I can say is that in S1 I didn't feel that he was IN LOVE with Peyton. I agree with the others who find the idea of being IN LOVE to be a process, and I feel like in order to have experienced it they would have to also be together. I believe he loved her back then, but I don't believe he was in love with her. I think that the flashback signified their journey, but I still hold to my belief that it wasn't until S4 that he was ultimately in love with Peyton. And I think that in his novel he is explaining how he was NOW (as in at that moment) and always would be IN LOVE with her. The flashback I don't think was intended to show how he was in love with her back then, just that those seeds had been planted. Does that make any sense. And also, I think that SaBrucas and you are interpreting the statement differently by the emphasis of the comma. For ex. Your looking at it as I --Pause-- WAS (past) NOW (present) and ALWAYS WILL BE (Future) ect.
She I was NOW (present)and ALWAYS WILL BE (future). Therefore given that difference in understanding you place emphasis on all three states and she only present and future. I think that with the flashback it leans more to your understanding, but hers is just as valid especially if you had not watched that part as extensively as you have lol. Anyways, some of the things I agree with, and then others well we know we love to agree to disagree!