Mixed Family

audreygrace412 Left and Bottom Right shows [b]Identical Twins with the exact same DNA/genetics.[/b] Top right shows siblings and parents.

ThePrincesTale Sorry but that's just biologically incorrect. They can't be genetically identical yet obviously have a different set of alleles for skin colour, eye colour and hair follicle shape. They can possibly be fraternal/dizygotic twins. But definitely, definitely not identical/monozygotic.

zanhar1 I know this isn't adding anything of real substance/relevance lol but they are so pretty.

audreygrace412 ^^ Sorry but you're just incorrect. While these twins specifically might not actually be identical and might be fraternal; It is still possible for identical twins to come out with one twin being black-skinned and the other being white-skinned. Here's an example of that, the twins I confused them with: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3461832/First-identical-twins-different-skin-colour-born-UK.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/12172157/Britains-first-black-and-white-twins-born-from-same-egg.html And here's an article on [b]these twins in the picture:[/b] http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/black-white-twins-meet-sisters-5256945 Either way, whether they are identical or fraternal, they are still twins with the same DNA and the same family and home structure so how can one be a "person of color" and the other one not?

ThePrincesTale Okay I apologise. I'm doing genetics at uni atm and it seemed ludicrous that identical twins could have different skin colour and eye colour. Didn't take into account the fact the one of them could have obtained a somatic mutation in early development, or that there may be weird epigenetics shit going on (which scientists are yet to understand properly) If they're fraternal twins, they don't have the same DNA as each other. You get a random mix from your parents due to independent assortment, recombination and sexual reproduction. I would guess they're fraternal instead of identical because while skin colour and eye colour are both dependent on pigmentation genes, hair follicle shape is not and would require another series of mutations (already very rare). Anyway that's just an aside coz I like talking bio, lol. I'm not sure I understand the argument about a POC :/

Cinders Aside from being an interesting picture, I'm not quite sure what this has to do with any debate topic...? It has seemed to have lead to a fascinating discourse on genetics and phenotypes, though! BTW, POC is determined by phenotypes. However, I suppose this goes to the argument that race is a social construct (it totally is), and not biological? But so long as it's a social construct, we need to address its implications. The solution isn't just being color blind, but color conscious -- aware that people of different skin colors, ethnicities, etc, experience the world differently. Not pretending the problem doesn't exist.

audreygrace412 ^^ The genetic variance between two people who have the same father and mother, twins or not, is very small, especially if the parents themselves aren't very mixed. The point is that their genetics source from the same exact place as well as they are growing up in the same home and raised by the same parents so the argument that one of them must have a harder life than her twin sister just because her skin happens to be of a darker shade and look more like a stereotypical "minority" is a very basic and inaccurate argument. ^ Read above. The solution is not in being skin color conscious, it's about forgetting about skin color and taking people on merit. Focusing on skin color is what the Civil Rights Movement tried to get away from so why do you keep trying to regress?

Cinders Actually the Civil Rights Movement fought and continues to fight (didn't die with desegregation and MLK!) to be seen as human beings, and not something less. They fought to be seen for who they are and accepted. Acknowledging that we're all different, look different, and experience the world differently and celebrating it is the complete opposite spectrum of judging people for their differences. Pretending they don't exist and that it doesn't affect their lives is equivalent to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand until it all goes away. The opposite of hating something isn't denying it, it's accepting it. QUOTE: I've had many teachers say to me, "I’m not prejudiced. I don't notice any differences in these kids. I treat them all the same," and my question is, "The same as what?" —an African American father"

audreygrace412 [i]Actually[/i] the Civil Rights Movement was 1954-1968 and does not still go today. If you want to say that civil rights are still being pursued and fought for then by all means you can but pretending that the Civil Rights Movement (Proper Noun) is still going is just factually and historically inaccurate. Abraham Lincoln was killed for racist reasons. He was killed because he wanted Black men to be free and independent everywhere in America. Abraham Lincoln was a White man killed for racist reasons. Martin Luther King Jr. on the other hand was not killed for racist reasons. He was killed not because of his demonstrations against racism but because he started to speak out against the class system in America. He was a Black man killed for class reasons. Cinders, Please take your own advice and stop pretending that anyone is saying we don't experience things different. At this point you are just disrespecting me, seemingly purposefully, as I have stated repeatedly that I am not denying experiences here; You are. You deny racism that White people face and that is your prerogative but please stop pretending that I'm the exclusive one here when I am the one being the most inclusive of everyone's experiences and not trying to tell people that they have to be a certain color in order for their experiences to be validated like you are. I think that is really hypocritical and unfair of you.

misanthrope86 [url=https://media.giphy.com/media/oyys1ZScz5bKE/giphy.gif]^[/url]

bohemianbeyotch hahaha this one be goin on about racism that white ppl experience in an argument about how much harder it is for us black folk and anyone else of a different color or race. bitch plz, who the hell gave u the credentials to talk? no one want to hear ur raggeddy ann mug.

ThePrincesTale Bohemian, I feel ya. Complaining about "the poor white people" in the context of racism is honestly such a silly, yet common, occurrence in the discourse of the past few years. It sorta hurts me to see content crop up around here that make it seem like "racism against whites" is actually any sort of significant issue. It is pretty much limited to perhaps a few white people occasionally having their feelings hurt by being called "white trash" or something, which while still a bad thing, is basically just baseline bullying. It is not entrenched to any degree. Never have the government discriminated against white people. White people do not, in their socio-economic statuses or other indicators, still suffer the effects of historical systematic racism. Insults against whites don't have the same sort of reprehensible history that insults against other minorities have. It's just... so not an issue in the scheme of things. I wish people would stop making out like it is. It's probably the result of "alt-right" and white nationalist rhetoric quietly infiltrating mainstream discussion. It's sad.

audreygrace412 Just giving everyone a heads up that this person ^^ (bohemianbeyotch) was deleted for her racist and sexist comments, abusive conduct and clear violation of the rules. She called white women "b*****s" that have "pale skinny frame(s)" and aren't "true women" among many other horribly inappropriate and prejudicial comments.

misanthrope86 Just giving you a heads up that that doesn't absolve you of your own horribly inappropriate and prejudicial comments.

zanhar1 But that still doesn't make what bohemian said right either? Honestly I think this is just another debate that is getting needlessly hostile and audrey is being majorly tag-teamed. As an outsider I respect both sides of the argument. So can I ask respectfully where you think audrey was being horribly inappropriate? Because this time I personally couldn't see anything [i]that[/i] bad. Again not trying to be rude to anyone but I just feel bad for audrey having so many people going at her.

Cinders OK. Can we back off? This is not the type of discussion this spot is meant for. If you have a score to settle, do it privately.

audreygrace412 Cinders, this is just one example of white racism I talked about. When people see me in person, I am tan-skinned so they have a hard time believing I am mixed white. When people talk to me online, I suppose I have white views are something? (Since even you said it was hard to believe that I am mixed?) Online people always assume I am white. As you saw, some people started attacking me as a white person and saying racist things against white people. I have a unique position that I have actually gotten to experience racism as a white and non-white person. My husband is white and he was stabbed once in Philadelphia, PA by someone who was not white and racist against white people. So this is why I try to tell you and others not to completely dismiss racism against whites as though it doesn't exist. I know it's less common in America than racism against people who are not white but I have also experienced that it is something like male rape, which also gets dismissed and never actually focused on. This is why I am inclusive about all racism and don't agree with excluding white people from potential victims of racism. I won't get into a long-winded explanation again about this but merely mention that I sincerely believe people conflate racism with supremacy too much.

zanhar1 Idk she has [i]always[/i] been very nice to me hence why I feel so inclined to back her up. I've written many articles and she only ever said nice things about them. Even when we disagreed. We had huge discussions like this but they were all very civil and actually super refreshing to me after having some unkind debates. I don't know what's going on between the two of you so I won't get in on it because this looks like it's beyond what's happening on this spot. That and I have no issue with you eternalbeauty and I don't really want to make one. But all the same I also don't feel comfy just letting so many people go at her like this. As Cinders said, this isn't what this club is for. Frankly after reading these comments alone though they just rub me the wrong way. Especially things like "you don't get to speak about male rape." Isn't the whole point of this spot for [i]everyone[/i] to get a chance to speak up about every topic regardless of opinions? It rubs me very wrong when people try to just shut others down. :/ It's disheartening to see. And tbh I do feel like people were saying that white racism is something that doesn't exist so Audrey wasn't alone in that misinterpretation. I just feel like this is such an unfair fight. EDIT: Legit all I'm seeing right now is Audrey asking for a little open mindedness; "So this is why I try to tell you and others not to completely dismiss racism against whites as though it doesn't exist." She's even looking at it from the other side; "I know it's less common in America than racism against people who are not white." So I'm also a little confused as to why people are calling her closed minded. Even after all of this she seems to be trying to remain respectful. I'm just so like 'wtf is even happening right now'? Also I'm sorry about what happened to your husband in Phily.

zanhar1 No problem. That's kind of why I'm confused here because minus maybe that one debate here you do seem to be open minded and respectful. I mean she's been banned as of now. I guess fanpop sees what she's doing as bullying too. And apparently the comments were harmful enough to be removed too. Usually that [i]doesn't[/i] happen. Followed you from where? (As I mentioned I have no clue where this chick came from lol). Thanks. I try to keep an open mind myself. That's also kind of why I was trying to play peacemaker but I feel like that would not have worked between you and eternal as this thing seems to go far beyond the debate spot lol. But with Cinders and the others, they've also been really nice to me so I feel like peacemaking could work there. Thank you again. ^_^ I have the same way of thinking; "it's better to try and understand people and debate them rather than just attack and condemn." Frankly I think seeing all of the shitstorms on tumblr and the way people jump all over each other helped me realize this. Extremists are the reason I have trouble calling myself a feminist or a conservative or anything else. That and I don't like labeling myself and I have beliefs from various sides of the spectrum. I feel as though terms like 'liberal' and 'conservative' just kind of box you in. Once you say you're one of them people seem to assume you don't have views from the other side. That's what I try to avoid. So yeah I don't blame you for not wanting to be extreme. No problem. "t I do not agree with people dismissing it simply because it is less common" Agreed. Over on the 'should people getting food stamps have phones' poll Cinders and I kind of talked about that. What is boils down to is that you never really know what a person has been through.

audreygrace412 ^ Yes, I deleted my comments pertaining to them so that whole thing can be gone. They accused my family members of criminal activity with tons of other horrible accusations and insults so I am not surprised they were all removed. I am sorry to everyone else here for that dilemma. I try peacemaking too but then I get accused of being an apologist etc. just for trying to see all sides before deciding. I speak frankly and that bothers some immensely. I also don't like to pretend to understand someone if I don't, I'd rather keep asking until I actually do understand. It's funny how you all keep mentioning tumblr because I have never been on there but I keep hearing horror stories like this and everyone is associating incidents like this with tumblr people when talking to me. Extremists are the reason I have trouble calling myself a feminist or a conservative or anything else. That and I don't like labeling myself and I have beliefs from various sides of the spectrum." Same here, entirely. I also think people jump to extremes too much with a mentality like "if you're wrong about 1 thing then you must be wrong about everything" or even "if you're a horrible person then you can never be right about anything". This is silly to me and part of the problem I always have. People often assume I am taking an extreme when I am often merely giving another side or at worst in a debate, playing devil's advocate in the sense of providing the other argument to get more in depth rebuttals. So if I say let's hear from side A and side B but one side is racist or homophobic or whatever, they assume I'm supporting them rather than trying to build a bridge of understanding between the 2. -_-